Curse

Toxic RD · Nov 07, 2006, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Im curious as to whether or not anyone has tried making a warrior using a scythe yet, and how successful it has been.

pham917 · Nov 07, 2006, 01:40 AM // 01:40

read best secondary for warrior by me. btw try it in pvp dummies, make a char and test it out. remeber ur not tweaked out yet. but u will be surprsise to c the damage output. max str max schythe use strenght moves like power striked.

Living Parasite · Nov 07, 2006, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Here's a build I was thinking of, haven't tried it out:

Strength- 10 + 3 + 1
Scythe Mastery-12
Earth Prayers-8

Warrior's Endurance [E]
Lion's Comfort
Counterattack
Chilling Victory
Victorious Sweep
Twin Moon Sweep
Staggering Force
Dust Cloak

Basically it's a huge health tank who uses Twin Moon Sweep and Victorious Sweep (as well as Weakness and Blindness caused by enchants) to tank while dishing out damage through Chilling Victory, Twin Moon Sweep, and the enchatments. Counterattack is great vs. melee and is free damage. Lion's Comfort is for emergency heals. Warrior's Endurance is PERFECT with Scythes just make sure you spam your enchants along with Twin Moon Sweep to make sure you don't hit the energy cap.

A Leprechaun · Nov 07, 2006, 07:23 AM // 07:23

i made a new one for nighfall but i dont know about later on but shes packing some dmg early on and if you take watch yourself and lions comfort so you dont waste adrenaline it works ok

LightningHell · Nov 07, 2006, 08:34 AM // 08:34

You could try, but I suspect a R/D would do better than W/D.

Turbobusa · Nov 07, 2006, 05:18 PM // 17:18

I tried with a smitter in my back, pre nerf I was hitting 100+ on 100al warriors.
Spamming strengh skills, with warrior's endurance, judge insight, 16 strengh and 20/20 scythe, it was godly. now, I can still hit very hard, but the scythe nerf lower it's effiency, since you rarely hit more than 2 foes at a time.

pham917 · Nov 07, 2006, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Living Parasite

Here's a build I was thinking of, haven't tried it out:

Strength- 10 + 3 + 1
Scythe Mastery-12
Earth Prayers-8

Warrior's Endurance [E]
Lion's Comfort
Counterattack
Chilling Victory
Victorious Sweep
Twin Moon Sweep
Staggering Force
Dust Cloak

Basically it's a huge health tank who uses Twin Moon Sweep and Victorious Sweep (as well as Weakness and Blindness caused by enchants) to tank while dishing out damage through Chilling Victory, Twin Moon Sweep, and the enchatments. Counterattack is great vs. melee and is free damage. Lion's Comfort is for emergency heals. Warrior's Endurance is PERFECT with Scythes just make sure you spam your enchants along with Twin Moon Sweep to make sure you don't hit the energy cap.

I hope u dont mind mr living parasite but i also added this build which i find quite good onto my thread on THE BEST SECONDARY. i hope u dont mind. i just wanted to point out to ppl about how dervish could pose as a really good tanker.

Xaero Gouki Kriegor · Nov 08, 2006, 03:32 AM // 03:32

I just couldn't get any luck out of a scythe warrior, I might try later with Flourish, maybe it can bring more use into flourish, but I dunno

pham917 · Nov 08, 2006, 03:50 AM // 03:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaero Gouki Kriegor

I just couldn't get any luck out of a scythe warrior, I might try later with Flourish, maybe it can bring more use into flourish, but I dunno

have 15 str and use primal rage. You may end up lacking ias but you sure as hell will deal insane amount of damage. it gives you 20% armor penetration with 50% chance of inflicting criticals, thats not including the fact the scythe inherits critcal. What annoys me most is the fact that people say strength does not increase base damage just Skills. But aparently no one has used primal rage. Once you activate it you have no accese to ANY of your skills for 10 secs. Wtf is the point of having armor penetration on that skill for then? Huh people? Sides scythe warriors do a lot of damage. Get that skill and use it in pvp against any 60 armor dummy. One more thing if you like to kil fast, use power strike in conjuction with frenzy and counter atk. Counter atk will give you back around 5 energy so just keep switching between powerstrike and counter attack. Just make sure your fighting something. Its like linking skills plus if you have a zealous mod thats even better. Im still unsure whether i want to use this build or primal.

Xaero Gouki Kriegor · Nov 08, 2006, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by pham917

have 15 str and use primal rage. You may end up lacking ias but you sure as hell will deal insane amount of damage. it gives you 20% armor penetration with 50% chance of inflicting criticals, thats not including the fact the scythe inherits critcal. What annoys me most is the fact that people say strength does not increase base damage just Skills. But aparently no one has used primal rage. Once you activate it you have no accese to ANY of your skills for 10 secs. Wtf is the point of having armor penetration on that skill for then? Huh people? Sides scythe warriors do a lot of damage. Get that skill and use it in pvp against any 60 armor dummy. One more thing if you like to kil fast, use power strike in conjuction with frenzy and counter atk. Counter atk will give you back around 5 energy so just keep switching between powerstrike and counter attack. Just make sure your fighting something. Its like linking skills plus if you have a zealous mod thats even better. Im still unsure whether i want to use this build or primal.

This is similar to an A/W build that my friend had. I may try scythe out but i still dout it to a 16 Hammer Mastery

pham917 · Nov 08, 2006, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaero Gouki Kriegor

This is similar to an A/W build that my friend had. I may try scythe out but i still dout it to a 16 Hammer Mastery

true but you forget warriors do way more damage due to Strength plus they live longer because of tactics and heavy armor class. Also they have ias. Where as A dont.

LightningHell · Nov 08, 2006, 04:37 AM // 04:37

The main problem I see is, what can this do better than a D/X, as a D/X evidently can work with the scythe better?

And, for the last time, Strength does NOT include regular attacks. Primal Rage gives 20% AP, but Strength does NOT trigger unless you use an attack skill. Need I scan it out from the manual, which is already very sketchy in terms of knowledge?

pham917 · Nov 08, 2006, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

The main problem I see is, what can this do better than a D/X, as a D/X evidently can work with the scythe better?

And, for the last time, Strength does NOT include regular attacks. Primal Rage gives 20% AP, but Strength does NOT trigger unless you use an attack skill. Need I scan it out from the manual, which is already very sketchy in terms of knowledge?

the moment you use primal rage ALL of your skills are disabled for 10 secs. wtf is the use for AP in primal rage if you cant activate any skills, if you claim all AP does is enhance damage for skills. anyways use it first and you'll understand.

thats not really the main problem due to the fact its irelevant to the topic here.

Loshi · Nov 08, 2006, 06:04 AM // 06:04

15 Str, 12 Scythe

Eremites, Leviathan Sweep, Counterattack, Chilling Victory, Wild Blow, Warrior's Endurance, CapSig, RezSig.

Works great.

And to the guy above me..

Buddy said that Strength only adds AP to Attack Skills.
Primal Rage and Sundering stuff adds their AP regularly.

Ie, primal Rage gives all your regular attacks 20% AP. Not just skills. Thatd be stupid.

LightningHell · Nov 08, 2006, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by pham917

the moment you use primal rage ALL of your skills are disabled for 10 secs. wtf is the use for AP in primal rage if you cant activate any skills, if you claim all AP does is enhance damage for skills. anyways use it first and you'll understand.

thats not really the main problem due to the fact its irelevant to the topic here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

And, for the last time, Strength does NOT include regular attacks. Primal Rage gives 20% AP, but Strength does NOT trigger unless you use an attack skill. Need I scan it out from the manual, which is already very sketchy in terms of knowledge?

Read. I said that PR gave 20% AP, and that is allright. But Strength, the attribute itself, does NOT trigger due to everything being normal attacks.

Silk Weaver · Nov 08, 2006, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Uh, becuase my post was largely ignored on another thread on a similar topic (probably because neither party, that is, the pro W/D party and the Elitists, is interested) I'll post it here. The OP of that thread was arguing that a scythe warrior is "the best", and while that's not what you're saying, this might be relevant.

Quote:

assume that the thread is about the Dervish class being the best secondary, and not simply the "best" secondary. Notice that "best" does not really exist. More accurately, it would be "most suitable" for each situation. A theoretical best is would be "most suitable" in all reasonable situations.

In that case, no, W/D is not the best. Here are a few reasons: It cannot utilize Deepwound or Adrenaline/Melee spike as effective as either a Axe/Sword/Hammer warrior OR a Dervish, speaking, of course, of the pretty decent Reaper's Sweep + Mystic Sweep (3/4 activation) spike, or using Wearying Strike + Plague touch to spread deepwound for fun. Don't know what for, and haven't found a use, but it seemed important to note.

For that reason, the W/D is limited in its use. Especially in form of attacks, as there aren't really any good attack skills a W/D can use with the exception of Wild Blow, and, in my opinion, Bull's Strike, and Protector's Strike, both of which are triggering from moving targets. I forgot whether it was moving targets that trigger criticals, or if it's still "fleeing" unlike the Bull's Strike update a while back, but both these skills seem to syngergize well with a scythe.

As you can see, I'm not the most learned warrior there is. Still, from experiences as a D/W, I've learnt that running from a Dervish is a bad idea. A warrior with slightly less than half health will very likely be killed by the aforementioned combo (Reaper+Mystic), due to the high critical.

Speaking of critical, I've found, in the PvP weekend, in fact, that a W/D does do large amount of DPS. This DPS can largely be avoided through kiting (or not kiting), and correct positioning. Mesmers in Zaishen Challenge were like flies, however, so it's all fine and dandy to me.

When using a scythe, I can only assume that is your goal is to maximize your Critical Chance, which can be done through Primal Rage. It's possible to use a A/D, but that's neither here nor there. With Primal Rage, you run into lots of complications. For one thing, it's stupid as an RA build, and it's dubious whether effecient monks exist in PvE, so the lack of healing causes concern. However, it does have decent armor (watch yourself was added in for fun). It is a rather oppotunistic build. I didn't actually run Prot's Strike, though it makes lots of theoretical sense. Wild Blow and Bull's Strike was good enough.

Strength does not add damage to normal attacks, so it's really just for the Primal Rage. It deals a hefty amount of damage...

... but less damage than a Dervish. It's simple numbers, really. Due to higher mastery, a Dervish deals more damage on normal hits, and crits, especially that due to fleeing foes. Now added to this, you are capable of using a non stance IAS, namely Heart of Fury, which gives a nice 33% buff at little cost. Enchant stripping isn't an issue if you have multiple 5 recharging enchants.

Back on topic. With an IAS, your dervish does less damage than a dervish. Note that fleeing goes auto crit anyway, so Primal Rage, I found, wasn't really as good as it seemed, didn't add as much as I thought it would. A Dervish can use an avatar, buffing its armor to up to 115 (windwalker), or with Lyssa's, my favourite, which gives a crazy +50 damage, or Reaper+Mystic scythe combo.

For one thing, I am pretty sure a D/W and beat a W/D one on one quite easily, due to several reasons: +25 per hit, +10 regen, +33% IAS, +Cripple fleeing does +Choice Elite. Strength's activation, when it does, which it wouldn't very often, doesn't really do as much difference as you might like. The thing with a D/W are the constant restrictions, and you would know what it means if you've played one. It's not a big issue though. In fact, its restrictions are lesser to that of a W/D, which cannot use attack skills during the downtime, which is bad enough in itself.

Now to compare a W/D to a W/any. Axe for example. Energy leech? You lose precious health leech and adrenaline by using a Zealous Scythe. Note also that scythe's slow attack speed means that you gain energy slower too. Without an IAS as a Zealous Hammer warrior would have, you simply don't gain that much energy too quickly. Scythes without IAS are really.. really slow. Of course, a dervish compensates that by having Mystic and Eremite's Sweep, but I guess that's a closed door for you.

An Axe swings much much faster. Triple + Cyclone combo are more effective in huge mobs, and deal more damage too. Scythes hitting 3 targets, for me, is more for flavor than actual use. In a touch situation, I don't see it coming into play that much.

Both ways, they deal more damage to single targets, and potentially become more effective in PvE as well.

So yes, it could work, I guess.

Vital Boon is a poor skill for a warrior in my opinion though, same with Twin Moon.

Right, hope some of them helped?

pham917 · Nov 08, 2006, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

Uh, becuase my post was largely ignored on another thread on a similar topic (probably because neither party, that is, the pro W/D party and the Elitists, is interested) I'll post it here. The OP of that thread was arguing that a scythe warrior is "the best", and while that's not what you're saying, this might be relevant.

Right, hope some of them helped?

If you review some of the posts before i tried changing it to Good secondary. Obviously since the thread is closed you can still witness it by clicking onto the thread and examining the above topic. Besides i already covered everything you wrote. Please reread the thread and review. Also for the last time anything above 12 mastery is unoticable weapon damage. The only benifit you reap if anything is increment in skill damage. Judging from what you wrote your relying on turning into a God. A skill that is disabled after 48 sec for 120 secs. If anything you know very well there are countless ways to counter that. The damage i deal is straight without the neciisty of skill usage. BUT however using skills will make this build deal insane amount of damage. MAximizing critical is indeed soemthng that is recommended but i prefer the speed strength and a stamina of a warrior. One more thing i killed plenty of dervishes with this build. If anything you should forget wasting attribute pts in scythe mastery and worry about mystism. Thats the real benifit. Even though quite small. one more thing power attack with counter attack. No energy loss as long as you know what you are doing. 4 sec recharge time a piece. with 15 str thats 30+ damage onto your critical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Read. I said that PR gave 20% AP, and that is allright. But Strength, the attribute itself, does NOT trigger due to everything being normal attacks.

I did read but in the previous thread you said regular attacks never get any armor penetration. The attribute itself is still in use due to the fact primal rage is indeed a skill and under the use of strength. correct? But those are still all regular attacks landing. Anyways i do understand your point and i stand corrected.

LightningHell · Nov 08, 2006, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by pham917

If you review some of the posts before i tried changing it to Good secondary. Obviously since the thread is closed you can still witness it by clicking onto the thread and examining the above topic. Besides i already covered everything you wrote. Please reread the thread and review. Also for the last time anything above 12 mastery is unoticable weapon damage. The only benifit you reap if anything is increment in skill damage. Judging from what you wrote your relying on turning into a God. A skill that is disabled after 48 sec for 120 secs. If anything you know very well there are countless ways to counter that. The damage i deal is straight without the neciisty of skill usage. BUT however using skills will make this build deal insane amount of damage. MAximizing critical is indeed soemthng that is recommended but i prefer the speed strength and a stamina of a warrior. One more thing i killed plenty of dervishes with this build. If anything you should forget wasting attribute pts in scythe mastery and worry about mystism. Thats the real benifit. Even though quite small. one more thing power attack with counter attack. No energy loss as long as you know what you are doing. 4 sec recharge time a piece. with 15 str thats 30+ damage onto your critical.

Anything above 12 increases weapon damage by 4% and gives you a better crit. The crits are really nice.

The main problem with a scythe W/D is its inability to do what a Scythe D/X can do, but not able to do much else.

pham917 · Nov 09, 2006, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Anything above 12 increases weapon damage by 4% and gives you a better crit. The crits are really nice.

The main problem with a scythe W/D is its inability to do what a Scythe D/X can do, but not able to do much else.

after lvl 12 in any weapon the damage percentage is so unnoticable its pointless. look at the statistics.
atribute lvl for percentage of weapon damage
0 35.6%
1 38.6%
2 42.0%
3 45.9%
4 50.0%
5 54.5%
6 59.5%
7 64.8%
8 70.7%
9 77.1%
10 84.1%
11 91.7%
12 100%
13 104%
14 107%
15 111%
16 115%
so as u can c its tottaly a waste of pts to put any more then requried. but in ur situation u want to increment the damage of ur skills where as in my positon i can just increase base damage and put other pts in diffrent areas that may also increase my chance of owning you. After 12, the returns on increasing your weapon attributes diminish sharply - each additional level is worth just 40% of what the previous levels got you. So while having a level 13 or 14 attribute might look good on your stat screen, it isn't doing a whole lot in game. You'd be better served lowering that attribute and investing elsewhere. You may think 4% is a whole lot to you. But in a sense you can max out tactics and strength instead to reap the benifits of the array of skills warriors have to offer.

Every critical hit with a customized top (6-28) axe and a level 12 Axe Mastery will deal:

28 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 12 - 40 ) / 40) = 47.5 damage per critical -i land more then that without critcals....... also around lvl 16 axe mastery u only have around wat roughly 25% chance to land a critical against someone LOWER lvl then u. where as scythes INHERITS the abiltiy to land criticals.... which i dont plan to go into statisics. U should look it up. ^ ^

The only problem i see with this build is the inability to stop conditions and hexes. But then i said to myself. Oh wait ihave 3 monks and a good guild team. Good sir i killed dervishes with this build. As a matter of fact i killed 3 ppl at once.. which was amusing. So sometimes its not always 9 out of ten times i hit one person. Sometimes they like to gang bang you but then you surprise them with dolyak signet and critical powerstrike via counter attack. recently though i saw magestrike and It looks quite spammable.

Silk Weaver · Nov 09, 2006, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Can a moderator ban or warn this guy? He's derailing threads, multi-posting, insulting others, not reading what people's writing, spreading lies, etc.

Pham, my post was not directed to you, but to the OP who started a legit discussion on warriors wielding scythes. Don't be a egoistic ----.

As for what builds I use, I use different ones, some of which uses avtars, some of which don't. Completely irrelevant as my arguement is that all of them outclasses a W/D scythe wielder in most respect. Conditions and hexes are not an issue, and noone raised it. Your build in particular lacks DPS and utility, and just overall sucks, in my opinion. If you promise to stop derailing logical discussion with it, I'll use a Dervish 1v1 without Avatars, which, by the way, are legitimate and usable as LoM demonstrated, but I won't anyway. Let us ignore the fact that Dervish has far suprior utility purposes, cripples, AoE conditions, etc. Let us also ignore the loss of auto-critting in a 1v1 battle, since there will be no fleeing, and that it has less armor, which will show in a 1v1 whereas it wouldn't as much in a real game due to it being less squishy and thus less targetted-- and then let us focus only on the DPS and HPS. Simply put, if I prove to you that a Dervish can outpressure you in terms of raw damage, especially with these unfair conditions, would you shut up and stop harrassing others who are trying to discuss politely?